@DelaneyGillilan @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato I showed the blog post you linked to Cursor and asked it to compare with my approach, even the AI is able to figure this out lol

@devagrawal09 @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato You relying on Cursor to back you up tells me more than you even know.

@DelaneyGillilan @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato ...you do realize that ai is not as smart as most non-entry devs right? cursor isn't backing me up, it's understanding the code i have written and the approach solid takes to rendering

@devagrawal09 @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato If you inverse that it'll back up hypermedia first. Vibe coding is so insidious, you do you but you might is well invoke Godwin's law at this point

@DelaneyGillilan @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato Aight I’ll wait for you to come up with technical arguments

@devagrawal09 @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato Please show the 2500 entries JSON version first please

@DelaneyGillilan @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato That defeats the entire purpose of this being an SPA lol why would I do that If you can’t compete with the best representation of SPAs how can you claim that your architecture is better

@devagrawal09 @DelaneyGillilan @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato In my experience the more complex the data going over the wire, the closer JSON gets to HTML. I can swap out each cell to be randomly UI component. The more varied the UI component the more complex that JSON will get. I also don't have to change my wire format, it is the UI.

@anders_murphy @DelaneyGillilan @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato I don't doubt your experience, most SPAs talk to stateless servers that don't have the ability to send fine grained updates, and even if they do they rarely take full advantage of that architecture because most people don't know how to build fast apps

@devagrawal09 @anders_murphy @wesleycoder @RyanCarniato I have never seen a stateless server, why not just have a static site at that point?

@DelaneyGillilan @devagrawal09 @anders_murphy @wesleycoder He means stateless in the REST sense. Things like serverless, or microservice architectures where the server can be torn down and brought back up at any time to no impact, where the concept of session is stored outside and usually accessed through shared token model.

@RyanCarniato @devagrawal09 @anders_murphy @wesleycoder REST is literally the opposite of stateless. REpresentational State Transfer. Of course there is state

@DelaneyGillilan @RyanCarniato @devagrawal09 @anders_murphy @wesleycoder When you use the word REST when talking to today’s programmers it means the opposite of REST so there’s that to chew on too lol https://htmx.org/essays/how-di...

@darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @devagrawal09 @anders_murphy @wesleycoder None of this has to do with the stateless assertion. What I read is that most REST APIs don't send the info back required for self-discovery. I think it overplays the importance of serialization format. If JSON returned a set of actions with urls in it it equally would suffice.

@RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @devagrawal09 @anders_murphy @wesleycoder It wouldn't. The API by itself is useless without a client to interpret and render it. A custom hypermedia protocol built on top of JSON will need a custom client built with JS. HTML needs only the existing, universal client--the web browser. That's Fielding's uniform interface.

@yawaramin @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Does D* not need a custom client built with js to handle server events, morph html, and run client side signals?

@devagrawal09 @yawaramin @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder “Man this software I’m shipping would be so much simpler and more performant if I used hypermedia as the engine of application state” Me, not a single fucking time in 20 years lmfao 😂 It’s the weirdo bullshit I stg

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Yeah man you just deal with painful framework breakage constantly, it's like watching somebody try to roll a square wheel. I'd say something but what's the point

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder “painful framework breakage constantly” Framework breakage is insanely rare with react what even are you talking about 😅

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Dude try upgrading one version of one thing and watch your whole project fall apart like a stack of dominoes

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder We constantly upgrade things in the large monorepo I work in. Seems like you’ve had some bad experiences 👀

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder It's a common experience. Change one thing and the whole project dependency trees collapses because of unresolved constraints. It's like a Jenga tower.

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder You’re describing software engineering. That can happen in any software project, and I’ve not seen in the React stack at all.

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Happens almost never in my Go or Scala projects at work, happens almost constantly in our JavaScript projects 🤷‍♂️

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Sounds like a skill issue lmfao

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder I knew this was coming, lol You know a shill when they immediately jump to say 'skill issue' at the slightest criticism of their tech stack 😂

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder 🤷‍♂️ you're describing problems I don't see in the JS stack, and I work on an enormous codebase with a lot of other teams. Dunno what to tell you. It's a skill issue.

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder That's exactly what a shill is, they ignore any problems they don't see and accuse others of not holding it right. This is not even difficult to find, we have this thing called internet: https://www.google.com/search?...

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder What am I shilling? Be specific. I'm just saying, if I, and the people I work and interact with aren't seeing these visceral problems ... maybe it's a skill issue on your part 🤷‍♂️

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Yeah maybe it is on my and on like half of the internet's part 😂

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Median dev tends to not be very good soooooo .... uhhhhhhhh

@AdamRackis @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder This is the exact same argument C/C++ people make when people criticize its memory unsafety. 'You know you might be dealing with a shill when...'

@yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @DelaneyGillilan @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Except Rust and Go have MASSIVE flourishing communities. The half dozen HATEOAS weirdos are always on here trolling people with imaginary problems and contrived use cases. It's just a joke.

@AdamRackis @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder The irony is I've already tried it your way. Ported @theo's 1 app in 5 frameworks https://github.com/delaneyj/1a... It was the fastest and smallest and has yet to respond. Maybe come up with your own test and make an actual wager since your are so confident!

@DelaneyGillilan @AdamRackis @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder When I tried looking, you had no deployment to, and setting up your dev environment was non trivial. You made fun of me when I asked for a production version, so I stopped caring. Grow up. Nobody wants to use your shit framework, even you.

@theo @DelaneyGillilan @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder but it's only 14k lmao

@theo @AdamRackis @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder task tool && task -w is really hard I know, sorry about that. You didn't reach out and tell me that so kinda hard to fix. I did give you a Docker container as well. Happy to setup a prod version but figured you want to run locally for yourself to verify on your terms.

@theo @AdamRackis @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder Even I don't want to use it? Wow that's like genuinely impressive!

@theo @DelaneyGillilan @AdamRackis @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder I unfollowed theo a long time ago, guy is a self serving narcissist. I wouldn't listen to his opinion in much of what he sells. Yes I said sells...

@theo @DelaneyGillilan @AdamRackis @yawaramin @devagrawal09 @RyanCarniato @darylbarnes @anders_murphy @wesleycoder So, what's the cost of Alpine JS Pro + HTMX Pro again? Also $299 for a single user?