my dad's a mathematician, and this stuck with me when i do hard things, i mostly try to just keep going, at least 50% longer

the study assesses first graders the japanese kids range in age from ~6.5 to ~7.5 the age variance of the american kids is greater

in phase 1 of the experiment, the child is given a puzzle to solve, if solved, he's given the next one up in difficulty, and so on this goes until the child can no longer solve or, until 15 mins is up it cuts short only if the child asks for help or says he can't do more

phase 1 sets a benchmark for difficulty, phase 2 starts two levels above it it's meant to simulate the unsolvable, no scaffolding is offered to assuage the child is specifically allowed to keep failing, as long as they can bear, or until 15 mins is up

competition is not a factor

it's a pretty small study, and perhaps somewhat lacking rigor either way, the results are as you'd expect

90% of the japanese kids persisted longer than the american mean

and there are certainly confounding factors, as i'm sure the japanese kids are more likely to have done these sorts of puzzles before, and probably even practiced them on purpose the confounders are kind of the point

the japanese all believe that persistence exists naturally in young children, and intentionally cultivate it it's very montessori

americans vary those who do believe, channel it into early outcomes, mostly as social proof for mothers like early literacy, which is pretty transient everyone reads eventually but competition gets steeper later the japanese are channeling it into persistent outcomes

mastering practice is likely the only early outcome that actually matters

there exists a perspective that being good at math is dumb luck, randomly assigned at birth those people seem to believe in neither nature, nor nurture the japanese believe in effort

the japanese believe that children can just do things, and that they, the mothers, can just do things too

the japanese mothers do not shirk

there is uniform conviction that people can change their circumstances

it seems patently better to buy in to persistence as opposed to the belief that losing results from randomness or unfairness, and never that you were outplayed

you can believe a lot of intelligence is genetically coded, without believing all of it is bobby fischer still studied chess books, kobe still went to the gym

genetic gifts don't get you out of practicing it just means the practicing will pay off more strongly

@melissa some confounders on Asian math ability discussions I think about (though I have not put in the effort to read your whole thread yet): 1) comparing to “Americans” includes American sub groups with significant heterogeneity 2) Asian kids in America perform even better than Asian

@ergelgru that's the composite this is math

@melissa Very interesting. There is a good old Polish saying about persistence: “zesraj sie a nie daj sie” - meaning “you can shit yourself, but don’t give in”. Heard it from discrete maths professor at university in context of learning high level math

@m_preibisch ++

@melissa This also explains why Japan has so many good rock climbers. Last month I had a session with a strong Japanese climber, we both put 10+ tries in a hard boulder. I was ready to give up, tired and no skin left, and said “you got this, maybe next session when you’re fresh!”

@dreadnip stay tuned

@melissa The first thing schools need to teach kids is that you get smarter the same way that you get stronger/better at sports. Work hard to study/solve problems and your brain simply gets better. Better memory. Better at connecting ideas. You will score better on IQ tests.

@ElsaJean22 ++

@melissa Japanese persistence culture is apparent from anime. In American kids shows the heroes win by being clever. In Japanese kids shows the heroes win because they get back up again and again.

@thedman9052 ++

@melissa Not maybe, It's concretely this. The math that most people dismiss as hard is not even that hard.. it's like the easiest ; most logical thing in the world, quite literally. The difference is time.

@Darksenon00 ++

@melissa That’s basically why the « Tiger mom » exists. A lot of Asian families just don’t believe there’s such thing as genius and mastery is from hours of structured practice.

@gpork ++